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2 June 2008The Mailman Special Investigation
Mailman Exclusive! What really goes on in a closed enquiry
Have you ever wondered what goes on behind closed doors of a stewards inquiry?
Is it hours and hours of intense questioning aimed at getting to the core of the reason for the inquiry?
Do they hold reasoned and fair debate designed to ensure the guilty are brought to justice and the innocent are set free, as one would expect in a democratic country such as Australia?
Judge for yourself.
I have been fortunate enough to have stumbled across a copy of a transcript from the inquiry into the withdrawal of Incinerator from a race at Sandown on 30 June 2007.
This excerpt is of the stewards interview with Kelvin Bourke on 13 July 2007 and the Chairman of the Stewards Inquiry is Terry Sharp. Also interviewing Mr Bourke are Messrs Bailey, Cram and McGinley.
They are trying very hard to give Mr Bourke a fair hearing, as you will read.
In November 2007, Bourke was cleared of three charges of giving false evidence under AR175.
Cue the Benny Hill music .....
CHAIRMAN: Come in Mr Bourke, take a seat would you. Mr Bourke, - - -
MR BOURKE: I'll just turn this off [mobile].
CHAIRMAN : Yes sure.
MR BOURKE: It's off.
CHAIRMAN: Right?
MR BOURKE: Yep.
CHAIRMAN: Mr Bourke you're a licensed trainer here in Victoria?
MR BOURKE: Yep.
CHAIRMAN: The Stewards will now continue the inquiry into the matter of Incinerator being withdrawn from the John Deere Winter Championship - - -
MR BOURKE: I can't hear you, can't hear.
CHAIRMAN: Okay, the Stewards will now continue the inquiry into Incinerator, John Smerdon's horse being withdrawn from the John Deere Winter Championship heat at Sandown on the 30th June and subsequent to that day, well firstly, did you get a message from Mr Bailey on that day? Phone message?
MR BOURKE: Not that I know of, a text message or-.
CHAIRMAN: I believe it was a phone call wasn't it?
MR BAILEY: An audio message.
CHAIRMAN: An audio message yes?
MR BOURKE: No I don't think so, don't know.
CHAIRMAN: Don't know, okay. All right well are you aware that, its clear Mr Smerdon, or Mr Smerdon tells us that he spoke to you on that day and are you now aware that there was surveillance conducted on your truck taking Incinerator to the races?
MR BOURKE: Yes, so I'm told.
CHAIRMAN: Okay and are you aware that as a result of that surveillance being carried out, that surveillance was also carried out on a silver BMW vehicle, license number UEA-506?
MR BOURKE: That's my car.
CHAIRMAN: Okay, all right well can you think back and tell us firstly, what you know of the transport arrangements for Incinerator to that meeting and possibly go on to what your movements were on that day?
MR BOURKE: Well the horse went to the races in my truck.
CHAIRMAN: Yes, who organised that?
MR BOURKE: Johnny Smerdon, to my knowledge.
CHAIRMAN: Okay, were you involved in that or not?
MR BOURKE: Lenny, I think Johnny arranged for the horse, Lenny was going to take the horse down on the day.
CHAIRMAN: That's Len Moore?
MR BOURKE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN: Registered stable hand with you?
MR BOURKE: He works for me, well he doesn't work for me, he doesn't get paid or anything like that, he gives me a hand at the races, mucks around.
CHAIRMAN: Okay and are you aware that the truck carrying Incinerator to Sandown stopped in a service road in Femtree Gully Road?
MR BOURKE: That'd be right, yep.
CHAIRMAN: What do you know of that?
MR BOURKE: I told him to stop.
CHAIRMAN: Why?
MR BOURKE: Pardon?
CHAIRMAN: Why?
MR BOURKE: Because I wanted to get something out of the truck.
CHAIRMAN: What did you want to get out of the truck?
MR BOURKE: Well, what I wanted to get out of the truck is really my business, isn't it?
CHAIRMAN: Not as far as we're concerned.
MR BOURKE: Pardon?
CHAIRMAN: Not as far as we're concerned.
MR BOURKE: I can't hear you.
CHAIRMAN: There's no reason to yell like that.
MR BOURKE: Well I can't hear you.
CHAIRMAN: All right, not as far as we're concerned.
MR BOURKE: Do you want me to move up there?
CHAIRMAN: No you're all right.
MR BOURKE: I can't hear you.
CHAIRMAN: All right, well as far as we're concerned, we want to know what you wanted from that truck?
MR BOURKE: Well I'll tell you what I was getting out of the truck, but what I was getting out of the truck, I don't want to make public what I was getting out of the truck, well I'd rather it not made public, I'll request that you don't make it public what I was getting out of the truck.
CHAIRMAN: Well if it's possible.
MR BOURKE: Can I do that?
CHAIRMAN: If it's possible, we'll consider it.
MR BOURKE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN: We've got to know what - --
MR BOURKE: I was getting money out of the truck.
CHAIRMAN: Okay, are you prepared to tell us how much money?
MR BOURKE: Yeah, oh well, yeah, fair amount of money, good amount of money.
CHAIRMAN: And where was that put in the truck?
MR BOURKE: It was in the panel, in the wall, in the truck.
CHAIRMAN: Well do you normally leave money in the wall?
MR BOURKE: I've had money in the truck on and off yeah, I can show you where I got the money, I can tell you who I got the money off and I can tell you why I got the money.
CHAIRMAN: Well do you want to do that?
MR BOURKE: Yep, no problem.
CHAIRMAN : Away you go.
MR BOURKE: I got the money off Greg Nelligan, I sold a horse to Wally Mitchell in Perth for $[deleted], he took $[deleted], I got $[deleted] and that was part of the money that was in the truck, but I don't want every drug addict and imbecile in Geelong coming to rob me or rob my Missus or whatever, because I've got a considerable amount of money hanging around, that's not out of the question is it?
CHAIRMAN: Well what you do with your money is up to you.
MR BOURKE: Yeah but what I do if somebody puts a gun up my arse, that's my business and drug addicts will rob you for shit all, they rob you for a thousand, so what I'm telling you is, I had a considerable amount of money in the panel in the wall in the truck, and I rang Johnny Smerdon, twice, I said have you left for the races yet, and he said we're half way there, and I said oh yeah, I said I've got to get something out of the truck, and he said, well whatever and I said, it will be right, just push on and I'll catch up to you, and I left home and I caught up with the truck and that's what I done.
CHAIRMAN: How did you catch up to the truck?
MR BOURKE: Well I caught up to the truck in my BMW.
CHAIRMAN: How?
MR BOURKE: What do you mean how?
CHAIRMAN: Where the truck was, when you met the truck, did you meet the truck in the service road?
MR BOURKE: No, I followed the truck through the tunnel.
CHAIRMAN: Yes, all right, well what instructions did you give, for the truck to pull up?
MR BOURKE: I rang John Smerdon, previous, I rang John Smerdon, I said I have to get something out of the truck, and he said something stupid like, yeah right George, he calls me George and he said, does it have to be and I said well, I need it today and I said push on and I'll catch up to you or whatever, because I hadn't left home at that stage, I never went to the farm on Saturday morning, on that particular morning, I never went to the farm, and I rang him through the tunnel somewhere and I said just follow me, it was well through the tunnel, I don't know the names of the roads, and I said just follow me up here, and I said to him, I said but, it'll take me awhile to get what I've got to get, and he said well we're pushing for time, or something like that, and I said well, you drive my car, I'll get in the truck and that's what I done.
CHAIRMAN: So is what you're saying you overtook the truck and they then followed you?
MR BOURKE: I overtook the truck, I got in front of the truck, but I don't know where it was, I don't know, really know where it was.
CHAIRMAN: Think back.
MR BOURKE: Well it was out the other side of the tunnel anyway, I'm pretty sure, yeah.
CHAIRMAN: So did the truck then follow you, is that what you're saying?
MR BOURKE: I just said, I told Johnny to follow me, I said just follow me through these lights here, because I could see the service road and I turned around, came down the service road, I got in the truck, I got a hammer and a screwdriver and I had to pop the rivets out of the truck and if he'd of rang me on the day, I didn't know he rang, I went from there, I gave some money to bloke, I had to give some money to a bloke and then I went to the casino, and I wasn't far away, I don't know whether I didn't-.
CHAIRMAN: All right so describe what you had to do to get the money?
MR BOURKE: First of all I got in there and I got a screwdriver, and I couldn't get it with that, and then I got a hammer, and I clawed the pop rivets out, there was pop rivets and there was tex screws, I screwed a couple of tex screws out and I pulled the rest out with the, with the thing, with the claw hammer and I had the money rolled in, what do you call them, cooking paper, tin foil, and I had it in about five bundles.
CHAIRMAN: How long had the money been there?
MR BOURKE: I can't remember the day it would have been, but I think it was the day??? bent one at Sandown, he bought it down the Orysdale pub and gave it to me and I can get the bank records of where he drew the money out of the bank, and you can ring Wally Mitchell and ask him, did I sell him a horse called, I've never spoken to Wally Mitchell in my life, but he organised the sale of the horse, a horse called Bodsworth.
CHAIRMAN: Yeah I don't doubt that you sold Bodsworth, that doesn't mean the money's in the truck, does it?
MR BOURKE: Well I'm telling you it was.
CHAIRMAN: All right, if your driver of your truck has told us that he finished up where he was because he got lost, what do you say to that?
MR BOURKE: Well I don't know, I've got no idea.
CHAIRMAN: So how many calls did you make to John Smerdon?
MR BOURKE: Two, I'm pretty sure, two. One to see had they left and he said we're on our way, whatever and then I said oh just keep pushing on, I'll catch up with you.
CHAIRMAN: And when you got in the truck, what did you tell John Smerdon you were doing?
MR BOURKE: What did I tell John Smerdon?
CHAIRMAN: Yeah, you were doing?
MR BOURKE: I'm getting something out of the truck.
CHAIRMAN: Yeah, and what was said then?
MR BOURKE: He said do whatever you've got to do.
CHAIRMAN: This is in the service road?
MR BOURKE: No, he said, when I told him we've got to pull over, I've got to get something out of the truck, he said, you're holding us up or pushing for time or something like that, I don't know exactly what he said, I don't know and I said, it'll be right, I'll sort it out and when I got out the thing, I told him, you drive my car and just follow me, when I went back, when I walked past the truck I said to Lenny, let me out at the Noble Park Hotel, I said to Lenny let me out at the Noble Park Hotel.
CHAIRMAN: Well he didn't let you out at the Noble Park Hotel did he?
MR BOURKE: Oh yeah, that's the Noble Park Hotel isn't it?
CHAIRMAN: You're talking about the Sandown Park Hotel.
MR BOURKE: Oh whatever, same thing.
CHAIRMAN: Where he let you out was opposite Sandown racecourse.
MR BOURKE: A pub in there, a pub just there?
CHAIRMAN: You'd gone past the pub.
MR BOURKE: Oh near the pub.
CHAIRMAN: All right, well I want you to be absolutely clear, you make two calls to John Smerdon?
MR BOURKE: I'm pretty sure I only made two calls to John Smerdon.
CHAIRMAN: Right, you then pass the truck and you've told him you were going to pass the truck, have you?
MR BOURKE: I never told him anything, whether I was passing the truck or anything.
CHAIRMAN: Well how does he know where you're going?
MR BOURKE: Because I rang him and said just follow me through these lights.
CHAIRMAN: Well, just having a bit of trouble here because, didn't you tell us before that when you first rang, he was halfway to Melbourne?
MR BOURKE: When I first rang him?
CHAIRMAN : Yeah.
MR BOURKE: When I first rang him, I was still at home, or I had just left home or whatever, I was still at home and I rang him and said where are you, and he said, halfway to Melbourne or on the way to the races or something, and I said oh yeah, where are you, and I got no idea he said, he said he was between Lara or out of Lara or something like that.
CHAIRMAN: How did you catch him?
MR BOURKE: I caught him easy, I'm driving a BMW.
CHAIRMAN: Well halfway to Melbourne is a long way past Lara.
MR BOURKE: Not from Geelong its not, it would be half way wouldn't it? What do you call half way?
CHAIRMAN: Well I would have thought you'd pass Lara, maybe my geography of the place isn't too good, but I would have thought half way, how far is Geelong from Melbourne?
MR BOURKE: I don't know, I've got no idea.
CHAIRMAN: I might be wrong, Lara might be halfway.
MR BOURKE: Well it wouldn't be far of halfway.
CHAIRMAN: You'd know the area better than me.
MR BOURKE: It wouldn't be far.
CHAIRMAN: So you say you then caught up to him, caught up to your truck and passed them around the tunnel area?
MR BOURKE: I don't know where I passed them.
CHAIRMAN: Or after going through the tunnel, I'm sorry.
MR BOURKE: I reckon I was in front of them in the tunnel.
CHAIRMAN: Okay, because the evidence was that when your truck was on the freeway, it was going a hundred k's, the surveillance evidence, when its on the Monash Freeway, so obviously he's not going too slow.
MR BOURKE: Well I never said he was going slow.
CHAIRMAN: Yeah but you've got to catch him.
MR BOURKE: Hey?
CHAIRMAN: You had to catch him, that's what I'm talking about.
MR BOURKE: I can do 180.
CHAIRMAN: Can you? Okay.
MR BOURKE: Mind you I wasn't doing that.
CHAIRMAN: All right, so, all right, where did you actually pull up, where did the vehicles pull up?
MR BOURKE: Well I don't know, you tell me where it pulled up, I don't know the name of the road.
CHAIRMAN: Was it in a service road?
MR BOURKE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN: Where did you pull up in relation to the truck?
MR BOURKE: In front of the truck.
CHAIRMAN: In front of the truck, were you in front of a place with a bit of a colorbond sort of fence?
MR BOURKE: I don't know.
CHAIRMAN: Don't know?
MR BOURKE: I got no idea.
CHAIRMAN: All right so what was said then?
MR BOURKE: I got out of the car, and I said to Johnny, you drive my car and follow me and I said to Lenny, let me out at the Noble Park Hotel, I thought it was the Noble Park Hotel.
CHAIRMAN: What did Mr Smerdon say?
MR BOURKE: He said, okay, whatever.
CHAIRMAN: So you're telling the inquiry, that his horse is in the truck, - - -
MR BOURKE: He said, when I got out of the car, he said, they were pushing for time or something like that, yep.
CHAIRMAN: Well, that's not going to be helped by going slowly to the racecourse and then pulling up again, is it?
MR BOURKE: What do you mean?
CHAIRMAN: I mean the truck, from the time, I take it its common ground you got in it, isn't it?
MR BOURKE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: At that service road?
MR BOURKE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: Well I'll say to you that the truck then went at 50k's, in a 70 or 80 zone initially, and then 50k's in an 80 zone, with very little traffic.
MR BOURKE: Well that's, I can't help that.
CHAIRMAN: I know, but the interesting thing was, before you got on the truck, it was doing the speed limit.
MR BOURKE: What's interesting about that?
CHAIRMAN: Well it tells me something that someone's been told to go slow.
MR BOURKE: Not by me they weren't.
CHAIRMAN: All right, and are you telling us that you're getting in a horse truck with someone else's horse, and they don't even ask you what you're doing?
MR BOURKE: Well I didn't tell him what I was doing.
CHAIRMAN: But he'd want to know wouldn't he?
MR BOURKE: I didn't tell him.
CHAIRMAN: If it was your horse, wouldn't you want to know what someone was doing?
MR BOURKE: That's not for me to comment, really.
CHAIRMAN: You're an experienced person, that's a fair question. All right, so it was a pre-arranged situation that you got dropped on Corrigan Road, is that what you're telling us?
MR BOURKE: As I walked back past the truck, I said to Lenny, let me off at the Noble Park Hotel, that's the pub, that's what I call it, the Noble Park Hotel.
CHAIRMAN: All right, did you have any further conversations with anyone before you got out of the truck?
MR BOURKE: I don't think so, I can't, I don't know for sure, like with the, I couldn't talk to anybody, there was nobody in the truck. Do you mean on the phone?
CHAIRMAN: Yep.
MR BOURKE: I don't think so, I can't be sure of that, I don't think I was talking to anybody on the phone in the truck, I can't remember, I can't remember, unless I, unless 1 rang Lennie and said let me out at the Noble Park Hotel, you can let me out at the Noble Park.
CHAIRMAN: But you wouldn't do that because you've just told us you've already told him.
MR BOURKE: I'm telling you, I don't know whether I rang him or not, I'm just saying, if I did, that's the only reason I would have rang, why else would I ring him?
CHAIRMAN: Don't know.
MR BOURKE: That's what I'm telling you.
CHAIRMAN: So you say before John Smerdon transferred to your motor car, he didn't ask you what was going on?
MR BOURKE: I told him what I was doing, I didn't tell him what I was getting, I told him I have to get something out of the truck.
CHAIRMAN: Yeah, but with the greatest respect, if someone says to you, I want to get something out of the truck, you say well go and get it.
MR BOURKE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN: That's what you say, because this truck got to Sandown racecourse at one 0' clock, didn't need to be there till 1.10, went at 50k's, when it could have been going a lot quicker than that, with you in it?
MR BOURKE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN: So why doesn't he just say to you, go and get it.
MR BOURKE: What do you mean go and get it?
CHAIRMAN: You say you want something in the truck, why didn't he say go and get it?
MR BOURKE: Well I told him what I was doing, I said I'm going to the truck, I've got to get something out of the truck.
CHAIRMAN: Yeah, well if you said that to me, I'd say well go and get it, wouldn't expect you to get in the truck and travel in it.
MR BOURKE: Well where the money was, it wasn't that easy to get.
CHAIRMAN: Yeah but he doesn't know that you're getting money.
MR BOURKE: I didn't say he did know, knew I was getting money, but he didn't know what I was doing in the truck.
CHAIRMAN: Yeah that's what I'm getting at.
MR BOURKE: That's right.
CHAIRMAN: Well wouldn't that, an experienced racing person like John Smerdon, he might want to know what you're doing in the truck with his horse?
MR BOURKE: Well he might do, but he didn't.
CHAIRMAN: Yeah, that's interesting isn't it. Why did you get out of the truck, where you got out?
MR BOURKE: Why not?
CHAIRMAN: I'm asking you why, Sandown racecourse is just around the corner, why not go to Sandown?
MR BOURKE: Because I wasn't going to the races.
CHAIRMAN: Well you finished up driving in there.
MR BOURKE: That's because Lenny drove off and left Johnny Smerdon with me, so I just dropped him off there.
CHAIRMAN: He left him there with you, did he, is that right?
MR BOURKE: He what?
CHAIRMAN: Lennie just drove off and left him there with you, did he?
MR BOURKE: Well yeah.
CHAIRMAN: Are you sure about that?
MR BOURKE: Well I was standing there, he drove off.
CHAIRMAN: I've got to warn you, there's a video of that car, Corrigan Road
MR BOURKE: I know.
CHAIRMAN: All right, Mr Smerdon's told us you were having a day at Melbourne, you say you were going to the Casino do you?
MR BOURKE: What did he tell you?
CHAIRMAN: He said you were having a day out in Melbourne?
MR BOURKE: Not necessarily, I had to meet a bloke, give him some money, went and got a haircut, then I went to the Casino.
CHAIRMAN: Did Mr Smerdon ring you from Sandown racecourse shortly after you left?
MR BOURKE: Yeah, yeah he rang me, yeah, yeah.
CHAIRMAN: What did he tell you?
MR BOURKE: He said I'm in the shit here, because you got in the truck, something like that.
CHAIRMAN: Did you think about coming back?
MR BOURKE: Why?
CHAIRMAN: Why?
MR BOURKE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN: You'd know absolutely - --
MR BOURKE: You should have rang me.
CHAIRMAN : We did, we did.
MR BOURKE: How many times did you ring me?
CHAIRMAN: Only the once I believe, that should be enough.
MR BOURKE: What time did you ring me?
CHAIRMAN: Mr Bailey rang, I'd have to ask him.
MR BAILEY: Not long after you got on the truck, not long after you spoke to Mr Smerdon, not long after the float arrived on the track, anyway.
MR BOURKE: So why didn't you ring me again?
MR BAILEY: Well one message I thought was enough, you got Mr Smerdon's all right.
MR BOURKE: I never got, I can't, I generally go through the thing and I can't recall any message being on my phone.
MR BAILEY: Can't help bad luck, can you?
MR BOURKE: Hey?
MR BAILEY: Can't help bad luck, can you?
MR BOURKE: I never got any message from you, on my grandkid's dying oath, I never got any message from anybody.
CHAIRMAN: Righto, well I'll tell you what seems odd to me, with your experience, Mr Smerdon says to you, I'm in trouble because you're in the truck, you'd know exactly the implications of you being in that truck and what people would think, - - -
MR BOURKE: You should have kept ringing me.
CHAIRMAN: And you don't bother to come back.
MR BOURKE: Nobody asked me to come back, he didn't ask me to come back.
CHAIRMAN: You don't have to be asked, you should just come back and say this probably doesn't look too flash, its an unusual situation, this is what happened, that's what I'd be doing.
MR BOURKE: No.
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